eating any meat is morally questionable. (I say this as a person who does eat a lot of meat).
octopus passing a intelligence test does not keep it above the fold, neither does cattle go below the fold because they don't clear the bar (surprise, cattle are equally emotional, smart, curious etc.).
sounds wrong when I type it out but that is just the truth. milk is actually more ethically wrong when you think about it (isolating a calf from its mom to steal its food.)
doing one or the other does not absolve us. because one is more commonly accepted than the other
neuroticnews25 12 hours ago [-]
Is the isolation necessary or just an implementation detail? When my family had a goat we didn't do anything like that, the kids grew freely sucking the mother and then she was giving milk for years after that.
suriyaG 3 hours ago [-]
modern cow, goat etc. are selectively bred to produce more milk than their youngling needs. so separation is not a strict requirement ( you might lose 5 - 10% more if you just let them be.)
But when we used to own cows & goats, it was very common practice to keep the youngling tied away a few hours before milking. you can feel the pain of separation the parent goes through. ( goat and cow crying, while looking at their offspring is indeed quite sad https://www.flickr.com/photos/murfalizer/4429214117). to add insult to injury it is also common practice to tie the youngling in the line sight of the parent to milk more freely.
Miraltar 11 hours ago [-]
From my understanding this is doable in a context like yours but if you want to run a business out of it you have to optimize it which requires this separation.
soco 9 hours ago [-]
The business of "optimizing" is breaking a lot of things in the world, when you think about it.
Gud 6 hours ago [-]
It's also providing a lot of value.
alistairSH 6 hours ago [-]
Yes, there's even a new-ish word this... enshitification.
srean 15 hours ago [-]
Yes I don't get it why milk is considered more ethically sound than eggs in my country. Milk is stolen baby food extracted industrially under not so nice conditions.
Precision-Fermented (animal-Free) milk does exist but it is not easily available.
Unfertilized eggs are products that come out anyway and cannot become a chick till it is successfully fertilized outside of the hen. Granted that these two are extracted industrially under not so nice conditions.
Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap.
deepvibrations 9 hours ago [-]
Just to note, eggs are not as ethical as you may assume... We have bred chickens so that they lay an unhealthy amount of eggs, which is likely a pretty stressful life experience. The original breed of bird (Red junglefowl) laid roughly a dozen eggs a year, where as modern layer hens will lay 300+. So it's not really "comes out anyway".
They often get medical conditions like Keel bone fractures and reproductive tract disease and they're also culled at around 18 months when output drops (tiny fraction of their lifespan). Oh and the male chicks don't lay, so roughly one per hen gets killed on day one.
I still think overall milk is probably worse, but plant-based is biggest win to reduce suffering overall!
srean 7 hours ago [-]
I agree. Their 'living quarters' can be pretty bad too. I was describing their situation as compared to milk.
colinb 12 hours ago [-]
Your italicised text is /exactly/ wrong. Hen eggs are fertilised inside the hen’s oviduct. I mean, eggs are somewhat porous after laying, but they’re not that porous.
(I don’t know about you. I’m just a programmer holding strong opinions about avian physiology. Maybe there’s an actual biologist on the plane who can correct me)
srean 12 hours ago [-]
Oh! Thanks for correcting me. Now I learned that the egg is fertilized (if at all) before the shell is formed. The hen would lay the egg anyway fertilization or no fertilization.
simianparrot 7 hours ago [-]
Simplified egg laying are the chicken analogue to human female menstruation. It is technically quite different (chickens don’t have a uterus, for one), but it is still analogous.
shafyy 10 hours ago [-]
> Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap.
This is a cop out. There are plenty of excellent plant-based meat alternatives that I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.
srean 9 hours ago [-]
Could you point a few out ? I would be eager to try them out if they are available here in India.
shafyy 9 hours ago [-]
I'm only familar with the brands in Germany unfortunately. You might have Beyond Burger available in India — not my favorite vegan burger patty, but I think it's good enough.
srean 7 hours ago [-]
Thanks, will check.
Oh they are in fact available in India. Will definitely try them out.
messe 8 hours ago [-]
The beyond burger is decent, but there's no way it's fooling someone in a blind taste test.
uxcolumbo 6 hours ago [-]
Is 100% taste match more important than not supporting an industry that kills Billions of animals a year and on top of that causing a huge amount of greenhouse gases and biosphere destruction?
What if it's 85% taste match, wouldn't that be enough to make the jump to plant based alternatives?
Male chicks for example get thrown in a wood chipper.
srean 4 hours ago [-]
Inert gassing prior to the chipper shouldn't have been that expensive. That's the way capitalism works unfortunately.
uxcolumbo 3 hours ago [-]
And luckily we can vote with our wallet.
3 hours ago [-]
soco 9 hours ago [-]
For sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but I don't know anything screaming more "processed food" than the meat alternatives. The component list is longer than this thread, sorry I wouldn't touch that with a hundred feet pole (hyperbole mine).
shafyy 9 hours ago [-]
This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food.
First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods?
Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternatives: Some companies include much healthier ingredients than others.
Finally, even if it weren't for my two first points, the main goal of replacing animal meat with plant-based meat is not health, but ethics and environmental concerns (but again, it's not unhealthier).
srean 4 hours ago [-]
Tried some local brand today.
Am quiet satisfied with the kebabs. It's easier to fool in a kebab. Thanks to you I have updated my outdated prior. Things have certainly improved.
messe 8 hours ago [-]
> First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts
Define healthier, and link the studies.
I eat vegetarian more often than not these days (although I don't usually use plant-based meat), and I'm not disagreeing with you. But cite your sources rather than making vague health claims.
brendyn 4 hours ago [-]
Stop doing it then. Often we see the logical conclusion to something, but then our brains just shrug it off and chooses ignorance. I think it is necessary at this point to find emotionally stimulating content such as videos of slaughterhouses not following regulation, this can help us come to terms with what we already know.
suriyaG 27 minutes ago [-]
I agree with you.
but I find meat and the associated horrors that come with it, to be no more or less repugnant than the broader society and industrial complex that I'm forced to be a part of.
I suppose, I personally could contribute to be one less living being suffering. but in the broader scheme of things (new wars, poverty, deaths etc.).
in a very nihilistic way, I don't see how it changes anything.
I'm probably just copping out.
21asdffdsa12 12 hours ago [-]
I think, in a cthullian universe, its actually very acceptable- as long as you accept the burden of upholding the habitat of the hunted. The predator is responsible for the continued existence and the thriving of the prey. So, one should sink concrete pylons with sawblades to destroy the dragnet fishing fleet.
Purity spirals are madness and a brittle luxury, edangering nature and the world, the moment the surplus financing that luxury snaps.
adjejmxbdjdn 7 hours ago [-]
Both are clearly ethically wrong.
We have alternatives. And many are even more healthful. Theres no reason to personally engage with either.
> Compared with meat-eaters, vegetarians were more likely to have a higher educational level, whereas vegans had a lower education level
I think it’s good to question these things but the people who go full black/white on everything is where that whole movement died. Saying something strong like “eating any meat” will generally not win over hackers. But “we won’t bring cows to Mars” might work better.
suriyaG 17 hours ago [-]
> Compared with meat-eaters, vegetarians were more likely to have a higher educational level, whereas vegans had a lower education level
this is such a... wrong conclusion to make from the study. the study has found a correlation and by no means is it a causation. there are so many cultural, societal reasons for this to be the case. (eg. in india, upper caste people are usually vegetarians who generally have more access to education.)
kakacik 12 hours ago [-]
Dude, most of India are vegetarians. If you have seen the sanitary conditions for storing meat (or at least in 2008/2010 when I backpacked around the country), you would also become one. I certainly did.
Curries with meat were more expensive than vegetable ones in every dhaba. The bonus of not having to pick tiny pieces of meat from heap of chicken bones was a nice bonus (since touching food with hands was generally a very bad idea, sanitizer or not).
jdkdb76 10 hours ago [-]
Thats more about the variety of vegetables, pulses, spices etc all naturally growing there compared to other regions.
blacksmith_tb 16 hours ago [-]
Except that the study is from France?
suriyaG 16 hours ago [-]
it was an example of a correlation != causation
the parent comment was basically creating a causational logic for why vegetarians are more likely to be "smart"-er. which is not true.
rendall 12 hours ago [-]
> > Compared with meat-eaters, vegetarians were more likely to have a higher educational level, whereas vegans had a lower education level
> this is such a... wrong conclusion to make from the study. the study has found a correlation and by no means is it a causation.
I'm not seeing any assertion of causation from that quote.
colordrops 17 hours ago [-]
I wonder how many of these "self-reported" vegans were true ethical vegans vs instgram influencer, "I eat chicken once a week" vegans.
Also, what's your point? Is there a proven direct correlation between ethics/morals and educational level? And even if there were, does that imply that this less educated group is as a whole completely wrong? And are you implying that ethics and morals were even objective and measureable? I mean, completely no idea what you are getting at here.
pitched 17 hours ago [-]
The linked study does show that correlation. But I personally believe it’s more of a second-order effect.
Vegetarianism selects for openness and analytical/reflective thinking but the extra step to veganism selects for absolutism/purity and rigid category-based thinking. Reflective thinking and openness are definitely correlated to IQ so I believe the result in the article.
The point here is to know your audience. The people on this site are perfectly primed to respond well to a vegetarian/environmental point of view.
suriyaG 16 hours ago [-]
> Vegetarianism selects for openness and analytical/reflective thinking but the extra step to veganism selects for absolutism/purity
I don't follow how you conclude this at all. there is nothing to indicate this is the case.
14 hours ago [-]
dudefeliciano 12 hours ago [-]
Vegetarianism, in Europe at least, requires one to be open to a different diet than what one is used to, usually going against social and cultural norms due to a personal conviction that is reached by analysis and reflection, while veganism brings that to the extreme
colordrops 3 hours ago [-]
Everyone has different ethical frameworks. The label of "extreme" is arbitrary, not objective. I'm sure you would never rape or murder someone. Does that make you an extremist? You don't think it's OK to occasionally rape and murder people right? Vegans' ethical framework is that the murder of animals is unacceptable, and so there is no middle ground. That's not extremism, it's a different framework. To frame it as a spectrum is a misunderstanding.
thaumasiotes 11 hours ago [-]
> surprise, cattle are equally emotional, smart, curious etc.
Measured how?
It would indeed be a surprise if cows were equally emotional, smart, and curious as any other species. Equality on three different dimensions should essentially never happen.
suriyaG 3 hours ago [-]
cows might be more in some dimensions like emotion because cattle raise their young unlike octopus which doesn't . does that make the equation any easier to accept?
why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one).
47635274172635 17 hours ago [-]
>eating any meat is morally questionable. (I say this as a person who does eat a lot of meat).
I think this is very wrong. Doesn't account for when you don't have a choice, to be healthy. You need to eat more, you need to consider all possible situations, construction work people need to sustain all that physical labor somehow. It's a more serious chore to even attempt to build a non meat based diet, let alone sourcing everything.
If we could have a healthy alternative that accounts for everything (taste included) then maybe you can make that argument. Until then it's quite shortsighted and ignorant.
samudrijan 16 hours ago [-]
Verfiably false statement that you need meat to do physical labor.
Lazy statement that “sourcing” a vegetarian meal is difficult.
Eating less meat is better for your health and better for the planet.
The few exceptions I think worth noting are if you were born into and continue to live in largely/culturally hunter culture (Inuit, bushmen) or where you live is not sustainable for agriculture (Tibet.)
Most folks could just cook more rice, beans, greens and be fine.
47635274172635 4 hours ago [-]
>Verfiably false statement that you need meat to do physical labor.
I don't think a lot of people like you understand the real state of things, how a lot of stuff gets done, costs and what's needed for it. One is the quick maffs you do in your head and it's a different thing how real people in real situations behave at scale. You cannot shame billions of people into not eating meat, they'll just come for you and anyone deciding it for them. You need to have a realistic alternative for it, this shaming nonsense is puerile and gets us nowhere, just allows you to finger wag from your high horse is all. I find this perspective and way to go about it extremely shallow and childish.
dumberquestions 17 hours ago [-]
Interesting that you think having any drawbacks whatsoever to not eating meat is sufficient to justify eating it, I would've thought the drawbacks had to at least outweigh the suffering involved.
47635274172635 4 hours ago [-]
As compared to what, those animals never having experienced life ... at all? All farmed animals get to live and experience this place because of us. What you are fundamentally proposing is wiping them from existence, from possible existence. You cannot really argue for that without it being more goulish that you're trying to make it seem when they get turned into food. All of them die eventually, even if we don't eat them. And none would even exist if we didn't need to eat them.
So provided we offer decent conditions for their lived experience it can be a fair trade, since they wouldn't even exist in the first place. Who are you to judge if the cow thinks it's worth it or not? I mean the cow could very well go "moo yeah" if you present the deal "couple of years of grazing running around then get turned into a hamburger? Or no existence at all, what say you?"
lobofta 13 hours ago [-]
It is not only totally possible to be vegan, but it can be more healthy too. The Acadamy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the largest org for nutritionist and dieticians in the world, have a position paper out saying that a well planned diet is appropriate for all stages of life, including pregnancy. The NHS says the same thing. We even have vegan top athletes nowadays such as Djokovic and Hammilton. You can be vegan, so any justification you bring for violence against animals is for taste pleasure, habbit, culture and just generally not having evolved nor being up to date with the science.
suriyaG 17 hours ago [-]
I didn't suggest sourcing a non-meat diet.
I'm suggesting the opposite.
by design eating meat is morally questionable. (as do so many things with our modern society.)
all meat is fair game, because all animal dependent diet is questionable anyway.
soulofmischief 15 hours ago [-]
Your excuse for participating in one of the most vile enterprises in human history, factory farming, is that it's too much effort to collectively figure out a less barbaric diet?
And literally no vegan has a problem with people who medically need to eat meet doing so. I own several cats, they are carnivores. The problem is scale: The fact that some people medically must eat meat does not give a free pass for apathetic barbarism to the rest of society.
Even collectively cutting out a single meat or dairy-based meal a week would contribute to a massive reduction in demand. You have no excuse. Use this energy to build a fairer world for all animals instead of using it to get defensive whenever someone brings up how massively inhumane modern factory farming is.
aziaziazi 11 hours ago [-]
Please read this as an information instead of an advice
> cats, they are carnivores
Carnivores eat (mostly) meat in the wild but thrive on a vegetal kibbles diet, granted they includes the right nutrients. I get the "non natural" intuition, however that's also the case for others kibbles - from the cheapest to the best ones.
Your links go to pet food shops online that sell vegan food. How is that "veterinary recommendation"?
Giving vegan food to cats is animal abuse. If you can't stand the idea of feeding other animals to a cat, don't keep a cat as a pet. Dogs can handle plant-based (but not vegan) diets much better. There are many other animals you could keep as a pet, also. E.g. goats are vegetarian and they have strong, interesting and engaging personalities. If you want a vegan pet, get a goat.
Edit: And if you don't have enough space to keep a pet goat then you probably shouldn't be keeping a pet dog or a pet cat either. One reason people abuse the animals they keep as pets is they assume that an animal is just like a little, furry human and can thrive and be well in any condition a human can, e.g. like living in an apartment etc. This is so far from the truth it's crazy. Most people should really not keep pets.
aziaziazi 9 hours ago [-]
> veterinary recommendation
Wrong wording, I updated it to "My veterinary recommendation".
> animal abuse
What makes you think so? Those kibbles allow happy and healthy cats while avoiding animal abuse to produce the non-vegetal kibbles. It sounds you can't stand the idea a cat thrive equally with mouses, beef/pork/tuna leftovers (+supplements) or soy/algae (+supplements), but you only provide recommendations without information to support your claim.
Benevo FAQ pages has responses to most interrogation one may have, including health and palatability: https://www.benevo.com/faq/
soulofmischief 10 hours ago [-]
I will look into these and consult my veterinarians, thanks for the links!
huseyinkeles 15 hours ago [-]
I heard this many times before, same thing with the pigs as well, which are another very smart species of animal.
Based on the same logic, is it ethical to eat a human if they are mentally disabled or not passing some IQ test?
bahmboo 16 hours ago [-]
The flip side is that they have very short lives. But I can see space aliens saying the same thing about humans.
colordrops 17 hours ago [-]
I hope people say the same about all animals, but especially mammals.
vasco 13 hours ago [-]
No, don't think too much because you'll be sad. Better to pretend its just dumb tasty meat.
bayganyo 21 hours ago [-]
I find it interesting how people justify (or not) whether to eat another animal.
GMoromisato 20 hours ago [-]
First time talking to humans? We distinguish murder from killing because the latter is sometimes justified (e.g., in war or self-defense).
We justify everything we do.
47635274172635 17 hours ago [-]
Farm animals wouldn't even have existed in the first place if it wasn't for farming them. They wouldn't have experienced their life at all. I personally think hunting is horrible, that's going after something that is alive without you having a say in it.
But say for farmed cows, living in a field for a while, that's better than not existing at all. You cannot judge if it's worth it from the cow's perspective, it got to live, enjoy the sun, eating in the field, doing cow stuff, same as us. Even with the hardships in my life I'd rather have existed, for however long I can, than not existing at all.
So you see it's not as simple to look at and judge farming. If it was for you those animals wouldn't even have experienced this reality. It some cases you may be right, depending on their conditions obviously.
ethersteeds 14 hours ago [-]
This is an interesting thought experiment, though I generally come to opposite conclusions. I personally think that hunting a wild animal situates the hunter in the broader context of the natural world, in which organisms live by their wits and try to outrun others doing the same.
Conversely, farmed animals owe their existence as you say to our cultivating them. But where you see a moral release in that connection, I see a corruption of life into industrial inputs. A hunted animal many times will catch scent or sound and take flight, winning their life for another day. Livestock can't change their destiny by wit or will. Their entire existence is within the technological apparatus of our species.
The corruption becomes evident in evolution cleaved from the organism's interest and placed in service of our appetites. In turkeys with breasts too large to be able to balance standing up, let alone walk. Such animals can only reproduce by artificial insemination and only eat when food is placed directly in front of them.
Power dynamics such as these tempt us to tell just-so stories about lives well lived. Can we say for them that their lives are preferable to not existing at all? We're surely not neutral.
47635274172635 4 hours ago [-]
Hunting a wild animal is not necessary in most cases. Especially if we have farming. You had no say in the existence of that wild animal, you have no claim on it unless you need it to survive. Say you get lost in the woods and need sustenance to survive, that is excusable sure.
Farmed animals exist purely because of their use to us. We enable their lived experience. Without us they wouldn't exist, they wouldn't experience sitting in the grass looking at a sunset, running around in the field or whatever.
And I did mention it depends on their lived experience. I was not talking about the bleak industrial warehouses animals that never see the light of day and sit in bleak conditions. They don't get much out of it. I am sure we can figure out a fair exchange without getting locked in philosophical conundrums about it.
ninalanyon 6 hours ago [-]
> hunting a wild animal situates the hunter in the broader context of the natural world, in which organisms live by their wits and try to outrun others doing the same.
It's not exactly a fair fight though. In modern hunting the hunter might not always win, but he never loses.
> Can we say for them that their lives are preferable to not existing at all?
I doubt it. But we don't have to breed animals for maximum meat production at lowest cost in the shortest time. For instance the largest chicken producer in Norway [1] has declared that in future it will only produce slow growing chicken.
I am fine with more expensive but higher quality life experience for farmed animals.
YeGoblynQueenne 10 hours ago [-]
Peter Singer, father of the animal liberation movement, also now says that farming animals for food but giving them a good life "may be permissible":
More radically, Singer suggested that meat-eating may be permissible if “farms really give the animals good lives, and then humanely kill them, preferably without transporting them to slaughterhouses or disturbing them. In Animal Liberation, I don’t really say that it’s the killing that makes [meat-eating] wrong, it’s the suffering.”
Full disclosure: I have profound disagreements with Singer's utilitarian philosophy.
analog31 15 hours ago [-]
What's not existing like?
47635274172635 4 hours ago [-]
I know what existing is like, and I like it. Cows seem to like it when they sit in the grass looking at a sunset. Beats nothing.
verisimi 13 hours ago [-]
> You cannot judge if it's worth it from the cow's perspective, it got to live, enjoy the sun, eating in the field, doing cow stuff, same as us.
Yep, same as us.
YeGoblynQueenne 10 hours ago [-]
Except it's a cow, so not the same as us. I mean, presumably.
47635274172635 4 hours ago [-]
If the cow doesn't have the same living experience as we do, to some extent, then you have no argument for not farming them, since it doesn't matter, because "there's nobody in there" as it were.
You need to make up your mind.
jerrysneede 19 hours ago [-]
you mean you don't think it's right to make a creature take an IQ test before deciding to eat them or not? "Yes, right, well, you seem sufficiently stupid enough to ingest."
Dylan16807 19 hours ago [-]
There are hazards to doing it on an individual level, but on a species level sure why not? Between a talking plant and a brainless bovine I know which one I'd say is the obvious right answer to eat (assume both species occurred naturally for this thought experiment).
King-Aaron 17 hours ago [-]
Personally that justification is based heavily on the taste.
47635274172635 17 hours ago [-]
Based on not having a realistic choice. The only person I personally know to successfully pull it off is an acquaintance that's rich by local standards, doesn't work, spends a lot of time sourcing and cooking it, and also eating it. He needs to eat more for same energy. It's so involved that most of his life revolves around it. It takes a good bit out of his time. The rest of the people from that friend group couldn't afford it, couldn't afford spending the money, couldn't afford spending the extra time on it.
I personally wouldn't eat meat if I had a good alternative. I rarely do, I eat it for health related reasons, considering my setup.
justacrow 14 hours ago [-]
...just buy some beans/lentils and learn to cook those? It's not a herculean effort or particularly expensive.
YeGoblynQueenne 9 hours ago [-]
Yes, and if you have such a care-free attitude towards a vegan diet you should expect to become deficient in all sorts of necessary nutrients.
Everyone who treats plant-based diets with any degree of responsibility will stress the need to plan them carefully, considering the needs of the individual and their stage of life, and to accompany them with supplements to make up for the nutrients that not even well-planned diets cannot provide.
For example, "Top Tips" from the British Dietary Association:
* Carefully planned plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life stage
* Plant-based diets can help to manage weight and may reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes and other chronic diseases
* You can get all essential nutrients from plant foods but vegans need to ensure a reliable source of vitamin B12
* If excluding dairy, make sure you consume other calcium-rich foods
* Include a wide variety of plant-derived foods to ensure your diet is balanced and sustainable
Far, far from "just buy some beans/lentils". TBH that's just irresponsible and dangerous advice.
sinsterizme 21 hours ago [-]
Can you explain?
idiotsecant 18 hours ago [-]
I find it interesting how people vaguepost without managing to make any semblance of contribution to the discussion
micromacrofoot 21 hours ago [-]
I like to see where they are farmed before I decide... and having seen much of that in the US I've landed on "maybe some bugs are ok to eat."
blamestross 16 hours ago [-]
Octopi essentially consent. They are avid cannibals. In the octopi universe eating an octopi is clearly ok.
jamiejquinn 10 hours ago [-]
Ding ding! We've found our best candidate for ambassador to a newly discovered alien species!
fittingopposite 13 hours ago [-]
Fyi octopus is a Greek not Latin word (meaning 8 feet) and its correct plural would be rather octopodes.
Nursie 12 hours ago [-]
Octopi is equally correct because we're speaking English and frequency of use trumps etymological cromulence.
Octopuses works too. I quite like "Octopods" because -podes is unusual in English, though not entirely absent (see Antipodes).
(I'm not sure "an Octopi" is correct in any of these cases!)
teravor 16 hours ago [-]
is there a case for a long lived animal being a cannibal? I would imagine that prion risk will select for aversion.
aziaziazi 3 hours ago [-]
Salmons decay after spawning, then die. Their offspring eat the nutrients presents in the water, including their parents leftovers.
GMoromisato 20 hours ago [-]
My wife stopped eating octopus after seeing the giant Pacific octopus in the Monterey aquarium. The way it stares at you hints at a real intelligence. Maybe the smaller species aren't that smart, but why take the chance?
colechristensen 19 hours ago [-]
I'm pretty convinced we could discuss philosophy with octopus friends if they didn't all die immediately after reproducing.
King-Aaron 17 hours ago [-]
Don't kid yourself Jimmy, if an octopus ever got the chance he'd eat you and everyone you cared about!
colechristensen 17 hours ago [-]
So would a primitive human.
mrheosuper 17 hours ago [-]
That's why cannibalism was so popular back in the day.
King-Aaron 17 hours ago [-]
So would a cow
PowerElectronix 22 hours ago [-]
They're too delicious to consider how smart they are.
Xorakios 17 hours ago [-]
I don't eat octopus or veal. Delicious or not, there are some lines that perhaps should not be crossed.
unethical_ban 21 hours ago [-]
I cannot judge too harshly, since I still eat many kinds of animal. However, I never ate octopus growing up, and I learned of their intelligence before I tried it more than a few times. It was easier to "never start" than to quit. And besides, octopus is not that great and if you insist on eating seafood I find pretty much any other item to have more enjoyable texture.
slowin 18 hours ago [-]
Octopus is the only animal I've ever stopped eating due to ethical concerns (not that I'm against examining my relationship with other animals). That being said, it's really delicious if you get it fresh. It just so happens that it's very rare (in the US) to get fresh octopus. I liked tako nigiri and grilled octopus, Mediterranean style. The taste and texture difference between fresh and not fresh is huge though. Probably another great reason not to eat them!
PowerElectronix 10 hours ago [-]
I wanna say that despite being extremely intelligent for a mollusk, they are not intelligent at all compared with other animals like dophins, whales, etc, that not only can communicate with each other, but also develop a culture in their groups.
Octopus are smart for what they are, but not smart enough to think of them as being superior to pigs or cows intelligence-wise.
idiotsecant 18 hours ago [-]
This is almost certainly equally or more valid for pigs. Pigs have the unfortunate property of being much tastier than octopus, though.
mc32 18 hours ago [-]
Some people enjoy eating live baby octopuses. To me that is an odd delicacy -but then some Americans like shucking Oysters too, so I can't be critical.
Modified3019 10 hours ago [-]
On the context of ethics, oysters are probably the safest thing from the animal kingdom to eat. They’re really the closest thing we have to a meat based plant.
Many who consider themselves vegan have no issues wasting them.
monegator 11 hours ago [-]
they are indeed, which is why it was so difficult to stop eating them... just like popplers!
testaccount28 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
13 hours ago [-]
thesz 10 hours ago [-]
> I didn't realize that an octopuses brain was spread out all over its body.
Should have read the Children of Time series (Adrian Tchaikovsky) ;)
georgeecollins 18 hours ago [-]
Yep, they do some cognition in their arms. You also do some processing in your ears and your eyes. There is a lot of evidence that you learn to recognize certain stimulus in the neurons outside of the "brain".
fragmede 1 hours ago [-]
Smells are a strong indicator of this, with smells able to invoke memories in a way that nothing else can.
stevenwoo 18 hours ago [-]
In some sense this (not as literally as this case, but in measurable scientific tests) is true for other species. Processing is demonstrated to be distributed through sense organs in the frog in What the Frogs Eye Tells the Frogs Brain https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4065609, i.e. in frogs at least, the eye is not like a camera sending pixels to its brain
adolph 20 hours ago [-]
You might find the recent Theories of Everything podcast interview [0] with Peter Godfrey-Smith interesting. Godfrey-Smith is the author of "Other Minds: The Octopus, the Sea, and the Deep Origins of Consciousness," which is a great read to delve further.
Two other interesting aspects of cephalopods:
* Make many more changes to RNA than other invertebrates [2]
* Have only one type of light sensing cell in eyes, so may detect color by chromatic aberration
It's like 9 brains, one central one in the head and 8 semi-autonomous ones in the arms. Makes one wonder what an octopus consciousness is like. Is it distributed among the nine brains, or focused on the central one? If the latter then the arm-brains would be zombie minds. It's also possible the 8 arms have their own separate experiences.
We also have a nervous system distributed throughout our bodies, so we do experience the full body, but the neural signals are sent to one location, not nine. We experience ourselves as a unified hole, allowing exceptions for certain conditions.
VorpalWay 22 hours ago [-]
> We also have a nervous system distributed throughout our bodies, so we do experience the full body, but the neural signals are sent to one location, not nine.
Mostly yes. But we do have some processing that bypasses the brain: reflexes for example. The classic example is the kick reflex that doctors test with a small mallet on your knee. Or when you blink as something flies towards your eyes. It happens and your brain gets informed afterwards.
But there are degrees of non-conscious processing, from the heart beating by itself and your guts doing their things, to the breath which will be on autopilot until you take control over it, to entirely voluntary things like moving about your limbs (for healthy individuals).
Maybe the octopuses experience their disconnected brains somewhere on that spectra, where the limbs are semi-autonomous unless it focuses on them? (All we can do is speculate, there is no known way to learn the qualia of being an octupus.)
mrheosuper 16 hours ago [-]
>to the breath which will be on autopilot until you take control over it
Thank you for making me breath manually.
MPSimmons 16 hours ago [-]
I don't know if you could consider what the AV node in the heart does as "processing". It's more like a clock, to my understanding.
VorpalWay 10 hours ago [-]
I'm not a biologist or in a medical field at all, but surely the fact that the heart rate goes up if you exercise means there is some form of feedback loop (which to me sounds like a rudimentary form of processing).
If you haven't read it, you might enjoy Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time series. It's fiction which explores different intelligences, with the second novel[0] dealing specifically with octopuses.
While the specifics of octopus experience are hard for us to fathom, we do say our stomachs have a mind of their own, and science has backed that up mostly. The enteric nervous system is complex and large and intimately in touch with gut microbes (of which there are trillions), and is connected to the brain. Both speak to each other, but the gut does a lot of independent stuff, and we’re learning a lot of the chemicals the gut microbiome releases shapes our moods and behavior.
For an octopus, it must be something similar but with all 8 of their appendages. Some specialize for hunting vs moving, so that’s at least easy to understand, but given they can act independently, I wonder if the octopus feels like the conflict between gut and brain with respect to food.
bookofjoe 22 hours ago [-]
Other Minds: The Octopus, the Sea, and the Deep Origins of Consciousness [excellent]
Certain conjoined twins also have multiple brains in a single body, like the Hensel sisters[1]. In their case, they each control one arm and one leg, but are otherwise quite independent. I seem to recall they said they can both feel the whole body, at least to some degree.
So perhaps a bit similar, perhaps entirely different.
How sure are you that you have a unified embodied experience? Have you ever caught an unexpected ball? Run (I mean, really run)? There are a lot of situations where you conscious self isn't in charge so much as it is a really good storyteller convincing 'you' that you've done something yourself that you had no part in. Cut the interface between brain hemispheres and 'you' will still have the absolute self assurance that 'you' are the one in charge.
Nursie 11 hours ago [-]
> I didn't realize that an octopuses brain was spread out all over its body.
Yep, distributed around, though with concentrations in some areas.
They have a concentration of neurons in a sort of doughnut shape gathered around the mouth and oesophagus area, their gullet actually goes through the middle of their most dense brain area.
Very large potential for ice-cream headaches right there.
pash 15 hours ago [-]
What does it mean to “produce proteins with about twice their usual accuracy”? Smaller feature size, essentially?
treyd 15 hours ago [-]
No biological process is 100% precise. DNA copying being imperfect is the driver of evolution, which is the prime example of this. What I assume they're referring to is that their ribosomes just "make fewer mistakes" when creating proteins from mRNA.
These "mistranslated proteins" are normally infrequent and benign, and their material is recycled eventually. But that whole process wastes energy, so making a "better ribosome" makes all cellular processes more energy efficient and allows the energy budget to be reallocated.
taf2 19 hours ago [-]
Reminds me of the children of time books - think it’s the second book with the octopus
georgeecollins 18 hours ago [-]
Children of Ruin is about advanced Octopi, not as good as Children of Time, but interesting. That series or Fire Upon the Deep are really good for conceptualizing truly alien intelligence.
jayGlow 15 hours ago [-]
the mountain in the sea is also a good read. focuses specifically on ingredient octopus, I didn't enjoy it as much as children of time but still an interesting read.
fmjrey 24 hours ago [-]
I would imagine their intelligence is directly proportional to the so many degrees of freedom the arms have for grasping, but don't ask which one came first, chicken or egg?
pryce 20 hours ago [-]
the history of how people have conceived of causality between human intelligence and human hands (and in which direction dependency may lie) is quite interesting.
"It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals."
—Anaxagoras, circa 450 BCE.
slowin 18 hours ago [-]
Very insightful given that hands do have massive over representation in our brains:
Why should intelligence _other_ than motor-planning be tied to the degrees of freedom of their movement?
- snakes have a high number of degrees of freedom but aren't especially bright
- squid have 2 more limbs than octopuses and aren't as smart
I think the shallow-water vs deep-water thing mentioned in the article is important; reef and similar environments give a lot more opportunities for smart camouflage, complex navigation, tool-use opportunities etc than the open ocean.
teravor 16 hours ago [-]
most likely the enormous control surfaces their biology acquired required distributed neuronal mass and once that mass existed further intelligence became advantageous because it was a minor change at that point (switches during embryology increasing neuron counts and other aspects).
make3 13 hours ago [-]
why chicken or egg? it's way to imagine both evolving together in a mutually reinforcing relationship where the gains in one are direct incentives for the other to continue to evolve, etc
FpUser 18 hours ago [-]
It is a pity they have such a short lifespan
wahern 15 hours ago [-]
If they lived longer they might develop complex social structures, and then we might be in trouble.
piazz 13 hours ago [-]
Can we CRISPR it into humans? I volunteer. I’ve always wanted to improve my protein folding accuracy.
tclancy 12 hours ago [-]
Plus your pants would fit like a glove.
yieldcrv 22 hours ago [-]
lets splice in a gene fix for cephalopod senescence and get the invasion over with
Razengan 21 hours ago [-]
I have this headcanon that an ancient ape civilization was at war with cephalopods and they created a weapon of mass destruction that artificially gimped octopus lifespans :'(
culi 21 hours ago [-]
There is only one species of octopus that lives socially (LPSO are rare and incredibly intelligent but their lifespans are like 3 years)
Maybe your headcannon should be that apes did a "tower of babel" type thing to make all the octopus individualistic and unable to organize into a civilization
ux266478 20 hours ago [-]
It's more complex than that. The famed octopus city[1] was populated by the gloomy octopus, a species which prior to the discover was believed to have been exclusively solitary.
Well the LPSO is the only consistently social octopus. "Octopus city" was actually 2 cities (the second one being discovered in 2016) and they were groups of about 15 gloomy octopuses. There are a couple of other examples of octopus sociality but on a species-wide level only the LPSO can be comfortably described as social
Almost all octopuses are cannibalistic but Abdopus have also been found living close to and tolerating each other
Razengan 8 hours ago [-]
Actually, just like how among apes only one [sub]species has been known to develop sapience and civilization, could there be one particular species among octopuses that is particularly well suited for [future] sapience?
Should we wipe them out now, just to be safe?
(no, don't. all cephalopods should be protected)
yieldcrv 21 hours ago [-]
mutations that occur after reproduction are never weeded out since the genes are passed on already, so natural selection on its own can result in this, just like cancer or lower safeguards against cancer such as short telomeres in humans
a_t48 20 hours ago [-]
This isn’t quite true, is it? A mutation that killed 5 years after childbirth would result in higher mortality rates for the child.
yieldcrv 20 hours ago [-]
Octopus have extremely high mortality rates and extremely large litters, so there’s that
They don’t raise their offspring
zabzonk 19 hours ago [-]
Though FWIW, they do protect their eggs quite well.
yieldcrv 19 hours ago [-]
Isn't this tied to the senesce? Where their digestive tract has closed and they starve to death at the nest
zabzonk 16 hours ago [-]
Indeed, AFAIK. I've never seen an explanation for this. Most things that reproduce successfully want to do it again - or at least their DNA does. Perhaps octopuses are simply disappointed by the experience.
randomImmigrant 4 hours ago [-]
Octopus senescence isn’t a choice. It’s a fully programmed part of their life cycle. There’s a bunch of hormones released by the optic gland that put them in this stage where they stop eating, stop healing, and sometimes even mutilate themselves.
For the mothers, the entire time is spent cleaning and blowing water over the eggs.
It’s generally accepted this behavior is the necessary pair to their high aggression and cannibalism. It’s likely if they didn’t go through this they’d end up eating their babies. By dying, they make way for a new generation. And this is their reproductive strategy. Live a short very active life. If you survive, mate, then die and leave the hunting grounds to the next generation.
yieldcrv 2 hours ago [-]
That explains how the mutation was promoted
But not whether other adaptations could be possible. Fix the digestive tract issue and keep the female well fed and defending the nest in a different way
a_t48 20 hours ago [-]
Ah yeah, I was thinking humans
throw310822 24 hours ago [-]
Pure, shameless clickbait as usual from Smithsonian magazine.
> Although there is no direct evidence that the adaptation is linked to expanded octopus brainpower,
I.e. the entire connection between this mutation and octopus intelligence is made up. Not even a shred of justification.
Otterly99 5 hours ago [-]
That's a shame, because the study in itself is interesting and raises some questions, but the whole time I was wondering why protein translation accuracy would be related to intelligence? Turns out there is no evidence of link and that the title just speculates.
culi 19 hours ago [-]
I mean it's a gene that helps them build a protein. It would be nearly impossible to say there's a "direct" link to that and intelligence. I think they are validly qualifying the article
A lot of science journalism has, for better or worse, a mandate to increase public interest and excitement about science. If you want a dry and totally accurate account of the science you should read the paper directly. If you want your curiosity and imagination excited, articles and programs like these are great.
Here's their proposed link later in the article:
> The findings hint that the rRNA adaptation might be connected to the evolution of the shallow-water octopuses’ large nervous systems. Their brains—which are spread throughout their bodies—had to expand quickly as they learned to keep up with predators and increased competition in this environment. Nerve cells, or neurons, are long-lived, study co-author Rishav Mitra tells Scientific American’s Cody Cottier, which means protein misfolding is particularly bad for them. By preventing that, the rRNA break “might help these neurons to work well,” he adds.
A conjecture like this probably has no place in a scientific article but absolutely has a place in pop sci magazines like Smithsonian
jjk166 24 hours ago [-]
Correlation does not imply causation and it's not even clear this qualifies as correlation.
thelaxiankey 2 hours ago [-]
not sure I agree, they reconstituted this mutation in E coli ribosomes, using Fluc as a luminescence readout, and saw a reduction in aggregates at similar luminescence without a reduction in translation speeds.
Not really familiar with translation machinery or luciferase, but it seems pretty compelling to me.
jjtheblunt 19 hours ago [-]
what about it is not correlation, that you imply?
jjk166 2 hours ago [-]
The default assumption is non-correlation. No firm evidence was presented demonstrating correlation. Hence "not even clear it qualifies as correlation."
This is a one time event that happened sometime after incirrates and cirrates split. This is like claiming there is a correlation between the Carrington Event of 1859 and the outbreak of the US civil war in 1860. One happened before the other. One could plausibly construct some narrative that causally links the two. But does it qualify as correlation?
thelaxiankey 2 hours ago [-]
maybe he/she missed the part where they reconstituted the break in e coli to show that it had the molecular effect they said it did?
d_finch 8 hours ago [-]
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reindeer2 14 hours ago [-]
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randomImmigrant 19 hours ago [-]
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doodlebugging 20 hours ago [-]
>If we “use nature as a guide to understand how that happens naturally,” she says, “then we can probably find ways to put it into human cells.”
Oh boy! Please hurry up with this. I want brains in all my appendages so I can adapt in real time to all the environmental conditions that I am encountering moment to moment.
Test it first though, maybe on a rat or a planarian. Your choice.
EDIT: I know this is great research. Understanding how evolution has allowed other species to adapt to their environments and overcome conditions that would be dangerous helps us assemble the pieces of the puzzle of the origin of life. I just don't think that the first thing we should be considering when we find something that makes an organism unique is the question of how we can insert genetic change into the human genome. If humans had ever needed it the mutation would already be present through natural selection.
If the end game is always to modify the human genome then there is no reason to do the research on other organisms.
Set up the conditions with humans and run a few generations through. The ones who make it likely have some genetic difference that predisposes them to winning that part of life. No need to rush things. Do it once, do it right.
I didn't realize that an octopuses brain was spread out all over its body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence
octopus passing a intelligence test does not keep it above the fold, neither does cattle go below the fold because they don't clear the bar (surprise, cattle are equally emotional, smart, curious etc.).
sounds wrong when I type it out but that is just the truth. milk is actually more ethically wrong when you think about it (isolating a calf from its mom to steal its food.)
doing one or the other does not absolve us. because one is more commonly accepted than the other
But when we used to own cows & goats, it was very common practice to keep the youngling tied away a few hours before milking. you can feel the pain of separation the parent goes through. ( goat and cow crying, while looking at their offspring is indeed quite sad https://www.flickr.com/photos/murfalizer/4429214117). to add insult to injury it is also common practice to tie the youngling in the line sight of the parent to milk more freely.
Precision-Fermented (animal-Free) milk does exist but it is not easily available.
Unfertilized eggs are products that come out anyway and cannot become a chick till it is successfully fertilized outside of the hen. Granted that these two are extracted industrially under not so nice conditions.
Waiting for good lab grown meat to become cheap.
They often get medical conditions like Keel bone fractures and reproductive tract disease and they're also culled at around 18 months when output drops (tiny fraction of their lifespan). Oh and the male chicks don't lay, so roughly one per hen gets killed on day one.
I still think overall milk is probably worse, but plant-based is biggest win to reduce suffering overall!
(I don’t know about you. I’m just a programmer holding strong opinions about avian physiology. Maybe there’s an actual biologist on the plane who can correct me)
This is a cop out. There are plenty of excellent plant-based meat alternatives that I'm sure you couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.
Oh they are in fact available in India. Will definitely try them out.
What if it's 85% taste match, wouldn't that be enough to make the jump to plant based alternatives?
Male chicks for example get thrown in a wood chipper.
First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods?
Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternatives: Some companies include much healthier ingredients than others.
Finally, even if it weren't for my two first points, the main goal of replacing animal meat with plant-based meat is not health, but ethics and environmental concerns (but again, it's not unhealthier).
Am quiet satisfied with the kebabs. It's easier to fool in a kebab. Thanks to you I have updated my outdated prior. Things have certainly improved.
Define healthier, and link the studies.
I eat vegetarian more often than not these days (although I don't usually use plant-based meat), and I'm not disagreeing with you. But cite your sources rather than making vague health claims.
but I find meat and the associated horrors that come with it, to be no more or less repugnant than the broader society and industrial complex that I'm forced to be a part of.
I suppose, I personally could contribute to be one less living being suffering. but in the broader scheme of things (new wars, poverty, deaths etc.). in a very nihilistic way, I don't see how it changes anything.
I'm probably just copping out.
Purity spirals are madness and a brittle luxury, edangering nature and the world, the moment the surplus financing that luxury snaps.
We have alternatives. And many are even more healthful. Theres no reason to personally engage with either.
> Compared with meat-eaters, vegetarians were more likely to have a higher educational level, whereas vegans had a lower education level
I think it’s good to question these things but the people who go full black/white on everything is where that whole movement died. Saying something strong like “eating any meat” will generally not win over hackers. But “we won’t bring cows to Mars” might work better.
this is such a... wrong conclusion to make from the study. the study has found a correlation and by no means is it a causation. there are so many cultural, societal reasons for this to be the case. (eg. in india, upper caste people are usually vegetarians who generally have more access to education.)
Curries with meat were more expensive than vegetable ones in every dhaba. The bonus of not having to pick tiny pieces of meat from heap of chicken bones was a nice bonus (since touching food with hands was generally a very bad idea, sanitizer or not).
the parent comment was basically creating a causational logic for why vegetarians are more likely to be "smart"-er. which is not true.
> this is such a... wrong conclusion to make from the study. the study has found a correlation and by no means is it a causation.
I'm not seeing any assertion of causation from that quote.
Also, what's your point? Is there a proven direct correlation between ethics/morals and educational level? And even if there were, does that imply that this less educated group is as a whole completely wrong? And are you implying that ethics and morals were even objective and measureable? I mean, completely no idea what you are getting at here.
Vegetarianism selects for openness and analytical/reflective thinking but the extra step to veganism selects for absolutism/purity and rigid category-based thinking. Reflective thinking and openness are definitely correlated to IQ so I believe the result in the article.
The point here is to know your audience. The people on this site are perfectly primed to respond well to a vegetarian/environmental point of view.
I don't follow how you conclude this at all. there is nothing to indicate this is the case.
Measured how?
It would indeed be a surprise if cows were equally emotional, smart, and curious as any other species. Equality on three different dimensions should essentially never happen.
why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one).
I think this is very wrong. Doesn't account for when you don't have a choice, to be healthy. You need to eat more, you need to consider all possible situations, construction work people need to sustain all that physical labor somehow. It's a more serious chore to even attempt to build a non meat based diet, let alone sourcing everything.
If we could have a healthy alternative that accounts for everything (taste included) then maybe you can make that argument. Until then it's quite shortsighted and ignorant.
Lazy statement that “sourcing” a vegetarian meal is difficult.
Eating less meat is better for your health and better for the planet.
The few exceptions I think worth noting are if you were born into and continue to live in largely/culturally hunter culture (Inuit, bushmen) or where you live is not sustainable for agriculture (Tibet.)
Most folks could just cook more rice, beans, greens and be fine.
I don't think a lot of people like you understand the real state of things, how a lot of stuff gets done, costs and what's needed for it. One is the quick maffs you do in your head and it's a different thing how real people in real situations behave at scale. You cannot shame billions of people into not eating meat, they'll just come for you and anyone deciding it for them. You need to have a realistic alternative for it, this shaming nonsense is puerile and gets us nowhere, just allows you to finger wag from your high horse is all. I find this perspective and way to go about it extremely shallow and childish.
So provided we offer decent conditions for their lived experience it can be a fair trade, since they wouldn't even exist in the first place. Who are you to judge if the cow thinks it's worth it or not? I mean the cow could very well go "moo yeah" if you present the deal "couple of years of grazing running around then get turned into a hamburger? Or no existence at all, what say you?"
I'm suggesting the opposite.
by design eating meat is morally questionable. (as do so many things with our modern society.) all meat is fair game, because all animal dependent diet is questionable anyway.
And literally no vegan has a problem with people who medically need to eat meet doing so. I own several cats, they are carnivores. The problem is scale: The fact that some people medically must eat meat does not give a free pass for apathetic barbarism to the rest of society.
Even collectively cutting out a single meat or dairy-based meal a week would contribute to a massive reduction in demand. You have no excuse. Use this energy to build a fairer world for all animals instead of using it to get defensive whenever someone brings up how massively inhumane modern factory farming is.
> cats, they are carnivores
Carnivores eat (mostly) meat in the wild but thrive on a vegetal kibbles diet, granted they includes the right nutrients. I get the "non natural" intuition, however that's also the case for others kibbles - from the cheapest to the best ones.
My veterinary recommendation:
https://www.benevo.com/vegan-cat-food-from-benevo/
https://www.amipetfood.com/en/products/lines/one-planet/ami-...
Giving vegan food to cats is animal abuse. If you can't stand the idea of feeding other animals to a cat, don't keep a cat as a pet. Dogs can handle plant-based (but not vegan) diets much better. There are many other animals you could keep as a pet, also. E.g. goats are vegetarian and they have strong, interesting and engaging personalities. If you want a vegan pet, get a goat.
Edit: And if you don't have enough space to keep a pet goat then you probably shouldn't be keeping a pet dog or a pet cat either. One reason people abuse the animals they keep as pets is they assume that an animal is just like a little, furry human and can thrive and be well in any condition a human can, e.g. like living in an apartment etc. This is so far from the truth it's crazy. Most people should really not keep pets.
Wrong wording, I updated it to "My veterinary recommendation".
> animal abuse
What makes you think so? Those kibbles allow happy and healthy cats while avoiding animal abuse to produce the non-vegetal kibbles. It sounds you can't stand the idea a cat thrive equally with mouses, beef/pork/tuna leftovers (+supplements) or soy/algae (+supplements), but you only provide recommendations without information to support your claim.
Benevo FAQ pages has responses to most interrogation one may have, including health and palatability: https://www.benevo.com/faq/
Based on the same logic, is it ethical to eat a human if they are mentally disabled or not passing some IQ test?
We justify everything we do.
But say for farmed cows, living in a field for a while, that's better than not existing at all. You cannot judge if it's worth it from the cow's perspective, it got to live, enjoy the sun, eating in the field, doing cow stuff, same as us. Even with the hardships in my life I'd rather have existed, for however long I can, than not existing at all.
So you see it's not as simple to look at and judge farming. If it was for you those animals wouldn't even have experienced this reality. It some cases you may be right, depending on their conditions obviously.
Conversely, farmed animals owe their existence as you say to our cultivating them. But where you see a moral release in that connection, I see a corruption of life into industrial inputs. A hunted animal many times will catch scent or sound and take flight, winning their life for another day. Livestock can't change their destiny by wit or will. Their entire existence is within the technological apparatus of our species.
The corruption becomes evident in evolution cleaved from the organism's interest and placed in service of our appetites. In turkeys with breasts too large to be able to balance standing up, let alone walk. Such animals can only reproduce by artificial insemination and only eat when food is placed directly in front of them.
Power dynamics such as these tempt us to tell just-so stories about lives well lived. Can we say for them that their lives are preferable to not existing at all? We're surely not neutral.
Farmed animals exist purely because of their use to us. We enable their lived experience. Without us they wouldn't exist, they wouldn't experience sitting in the grass looking at a sunset, running around in the field or whatever.
And I did mention it depends on their lived experience. I was not talking about the bleak industrial warehouses animals that never see the light of day and sit in bleak conditions. They don't get much out of it. I am sure we can figure out a fair exchange without getting locked in philosophical conundrums about it.
It's not exactly a fair fight though. In modern hunting the hunter might not always win, but he never loses.
> Can we say for them that their lives are preferable to not existing at all?
I doubt it. But we don't have to breed animals for maximum meat production at lowest cost in the shortest time. For instance the largest chicken producer in Norway [1] has declared that in future it will only produce slow growing chicken.
[1] https://www.nortura.no/b%C3%A6rekraft-i-nortura/omsorg-for-m...
More radically, Singer suggested that meat-eating may be permissible if “farms really give the animals good lives, and then humanely kill them, preferably without transporting them to slaughterhouses or disturbing them. In Animal Liberation, I don’t really say that it’s the killing that makes [meat-eating] wrong, it’s the suffering.”
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2021/05/peter-singer-why-...
Full disclosure: I have profound disagreements with Singer's utilitarian philosophy.
Yep, same as us.
You need to make up your mind.
I personally wouldn't eat meat if I had a good alternative. I rarely do, I eat it for health related reasons, considering my setup.
Everyone who treats plant-based diets with any degree of responsibility will stress the need to plan them carefully, considering the needs of the individual and their stage of life, and to accompany them with supplements to make up for the nutrients that not even well-planned diets cannot provide.
For example, "Top Tips" from the British Dietary Association:
* Carefully planned plant-based diets can support healthy living at every age and life stage
* Plant-based diets can help to manage weight and may reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes and other chronic diseases
* You can get all essential nutrients from plant foods but vegans need to ensure a reliable source of vitamin B12
* If excluding dairy, make sure you consume other calcium-rich foods
* Include a wide variety of plant-derived foods to ensure your diet is balanced and sustainable
https://www.bda.uk.com/resource/vegetarian-vegan-plant-based...
Far, far from "just buy some beans/lentils". TBH that's just irresponsible and dangerous advice.
Octopuses works too. I quite like "Octopods" because -podes is unusual in English, though not entirely absent (see Antipodes).
(I'm not sure "an Octopi" is correct in any of these cases!)
Octopus are smart for what they are, but not smart enough to think of them as being superior to pigs or cows intelligence-wise.
Two other interesting aspects of cephalopods:
0. https://curtjaimungal.substack.com/p/peter-godfrey-smith-thi...1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Minds:_The_Octopus,_the_...
2. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/octopus-squid-rna-editin...
3. https://news.berkeley.edu/2016/07/05/weird-pupils-let-octopu...
We also have a nervous system distributed throughout our bodies, so we do experience the full body, but the neural signals are sent to one location, not nine. We experience ourselves as a unified hole, allowing exceptions for certain conditions.
Mostly yes. But we do have some processing that bypasses the brain: reflexes for example. The classic example is the kick reflex that doctors test with a small mallet on your knee. Or when you blink as something flies towards your eyes. It happens and your brain gets informed afterwards.
But there are degrees of non-conscious processing, from the heart beating by itself and your guts doing their things, to the breath which will be on autopilot until you take control over it, to entirely voluntary things like moving about your limbs (for healthy individuals).
Maybe the octopuses experience their disconnected brains somewhere on that spectra, where the limbs are semi-autonomous unless it focuses on them? (All we can do is speculate, there is no known way to learn the qualia of being an octupus.)
Thank you for making me breath manually.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Ruin
For an octopus, it must be something similar but with all 8 of their appendages. Some specialize for hunting vs moving, so that’s at least easy to understand, but given they can act independently, I wonder if the octopus feels like the conflict between gut and brain with respect to food.
https://www.amazon.com/Other-Minds-Octopus-Origins-Conscious...
So perhaps a bit similar, perhaps entirely different.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_and_Brittany_Hensel
Yep, distributed around, though with concentrations in some areas.
They have a concentration of neurons in a sort of doughnut shape gathered around the mouth and oesophagus area, their gullet actually goes through the middle of their most dense brain area.
Very large potential for ice-cream headaches right there.
These "mistranslated proteins" are normally infrequent and benign, and their material is recycled eventually. But that whole process wastes energy, so making a "better ribosome" makes all cellular processes more energy efficient and allows the energy budget to be reallocated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_homunculus
- snakes have a high number of degrees of freedom but aren't especially bright
- squid have 2 more limbs than octopuses and aren't as smart
I think the shallow-water vs deep-water thing mentioned in the article is important; reef and similar environments give a lot more opportunities for smart camouflage, complex navigation, tool-use opportunities etc than the open ocean.
Maybe your headcannon should be that apes did a "tower of babel" type thing to make all the octopus individualistic and unable to organize into a civilization
[1] - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/octopus-city-obser...
Almost all octopuses are cannibalistic but Abdopus have also been found living close to and tolerating each other
Should we wipe them out now, just to be safe?
(no, don't. all cephalopods should be protected)
They don’t raise their offspring
For the mothers, the entire time is spent cleaning and blowing water over the eggs.
It’s generally accepted this behavior is the necessary pair to their high aggression and cannibalism. It’s likely if they didn’t go through this they’d end up eating their babies. By dying, they make way for a new generation. And this is their reproductive strategy. Live a short very active life. If you survive, mate, then die and leave the hunting grounds to the next generation.
But not whether other adaptations could be possible. Fix the digestive tract issue and keep the female well fed and defending the nest in a different way
> Although there is no direct evidence that the adaptation is linked to expanded octopus brainpower,
I.e. the entire connection between this mutation and octopus intelligence is made up. Not even a shred of justification.
A lot of science journalism has, for better or worse, a mandate to increase public interest and excitement about science. If you want a dry and totally accurate account of the science you should read the paper directly. If you want your curiosity and imagination excited, articles and programs like these are great.
Here's their proposed link later in the article:
> The findings hint that the rRNA adaptation might be connected to the evolution of the shallow-water octopuses’ large nervous systems. Their brains—which are spread throughout their bodies—had to expand quickly as they learned to keep up with predators and increased competition in this environment. Nerve cells, or neurons, are long-lived, study co-author Rishav Mitra tells Scientific American’s Cody Cottier, which means protein misfolding is particularly bad for them. By preventing that, the rRNA break “might help these neurons to work well,” he adds.
A conjecture like this probably has no place in a scientific article but absolutely has a place in pop sci magazines like Smithsonian
Not really familiar with translation machinery or luciferase, but it seems pretty compelling to me.
This is a one time event that happened sometime after incirrates and cirrates split. This is like claiming there is a correlation between the Carrington Event of 1859 and the outbreak of the US civil war in 1860. One happened before the other. One could plausibly construct some narrative that causally links the two. But does it qualify as correlation?
Oh boy! Please hurry up with this. I want brains in all my appendages so I can adapt in real time to all the environmental conditions that I am encountering moment to moment.
Test it first though, maybe on a rat or a planarian. Your choice.
EDIT: I know this is great research. Understanding how evolution has allowed other species to adapt to their environments and overcome conditions that would be dangerous helps us assemble the pieces of the puzzle of the origin of life. I just don't think that the first thing we should be considering when we find something that makes an organism unique is the question of how we can insert genetic change into the human genome. If humans had ever needed it the mutation would already be present through natural selection.
If the end game is always to modify the human genome then there is no reason to do the research on other organisms.
Set up the conditions with humans and run a few generations through. The ones who make it likely have some genetic difference that predisposes them to winning that part of life. No need to rush things. Do it once, do it right.